December 22, 2000
Guests on this program were:
Victoria Jackson
Julia Sweeney
Michael Shermer
Aaron Neville

Bill: Good evening and happy holidays, I'm Bill Maher. You know, as Christmas approaches, many of us find ourselves asking the big questions -- does God exist, what's his Divine plan, and where can I get my hands on a Playstation 2?

Oh, no, please. Well, last night we took a look at faith, God and the meaning of life, but we realized you can't unlock the histories of existence in a half hour. So we added a second half-hour show tonight.

That should do it. That should -- yeah, that'll do it. So think of this as our second coming and stay tuned.

Bill: Okay. I tell you, for people who are into God and faith, they have a lot to plug.

She's a very funny comedienne, actress and "SNL" star. Her play and memoir -- where is her play? Where is her plug? Don't I have it here? No. It's over there, "And God Said Ha!," Julia Sweeney. Julia, where are you?

You don't have something in this pile of Christmas goodies?

Julia: Hello.

Bill: How you doing, honey? He's the publisher of "Skeptic" magazine and the author of -- here I go -- "How We Believe: The Search For God In The Age Of Science," Dr. Michael Shermer. Doc.

How are you, doc?

Michael: Hi, Bill.

Bill: Good to see you.

Michael: Nice to see you.

Bill: Okay. His new cd is "Devotion." His family biography is "The Brothers Neville," and he is Mr. Aaron Neville.

Aaron: What's up, Bill?

Bill: How you doing, sir? Nice to see you.

Aaron: Nice to see you.

Bill: And she's a very funny comedienne and a popular veteran of "Saturday Night Live," our pal, Victoria Jackson.

You knew I'd have you here for this, right?

Victoria: I knew it!

Bill: Okay. All right. Well, you know, Christmas is a few days away and people -- I don't know, they get religious at this time of year. So we thought we'd do this show. And this is your book, Doc, "How We Believe," some very provocative stuff in there that I think will upset a lot of people. I mean, you do cite statistics here that basically say that the dumber people are the more religious.

Michael: Well -- I didn't phrase it quite that way.

Bill: No, you didn't, because you're a Doc and I'm not. But that's what you're saying.

Michael: It's --

Bill: You're saying --

Michael: The more education you have, the less religious you are.

Bill: Right.

Michael: And the more educated people are less likely to believe in God. Now, it's not some huge dramatic thing where like three-quarters of the people who went to college don't believe in God. But there is a strong correlation. The reason for that, we think, is probably that there's more exposure to other ideas and other people and other world views and ways of life. And it makes it more difficult to believe that the one religion you were raised with, who always said "We are the one true religion," when everybody else is saying they're the one true religion, they can't all be the one true religion. Therefore, there's a plurality.

Bill: Just like children believe in Santa Claus. Same thing. Big man in the sky --

Victoria: Excuse me.

Bill: You know, you grow up. You find out it's not true.

Victoria: Well, Einstein believed in God.

Michael: No, he didn't.

Victoria: Yes, he did.

Michael: He believed in Spinoza's God, which was that the laws of nature and the beauty and harmony of the universe are grand and wonderful to study.

Victoria: Sir Isaac Newton --

Michael: He did not believe -- Newton did.

Victoria: C.S. Lewis, Kirkegaard, Um --

Aaron: Me.

Victoria: And me!

Michael: How about all of the guys that didn't believe in God? Now, wait -- the decision about whether there is a God or not is not decided by how many smart people believe in him or not. Look, here's the reality of it -- nobody knows if there's a God or not for sure. If we knew for sure, then we wouldn't be having these talks, right?

Bill: But doc, you also say that women believe in more silly stuff than men, which --

Michael: No, no, no, no, no. Wait a minute, wait a minute.

Bill: Wait a second. Wait a second.

Victoria: Boo!

Bill: I'll say it right here -- you say "educated, open people and men feel the need to justify their faith with rational arguments, whereas less educated people -- especially women -- "

Victoria: All the disciples were men.

Bill: " -- are comfortable with their faith being based on emotional reasons." Julia: That's because we don't educate our girls the same way we educate boys.

Bill: Ah, So stupid people do believe in God.

Julia: No, I'm just saying that in our culture, girls are usually led away from sciences and from logical and critical thinking.

Bill: What do you mean led away? They're not led away.

Julia: Yes, they are.

Bill: They don't choose to go? Oh, yeah, right, we close those doors. We say, "Oh, wait a second, you have a vagina? You can't go in this computer course."

We don't lead them away, they don't --

Julia: No, there's not a law, but I'm saying that if you look at statistics, girls who reach puberty stop answering the questions in math class.

Michael: That's right, they are discouraged --

Julia: More often, they're discouraged because it's not -- they're not seen as attractive to the boys if they're good in those areas.

Bill: But they're not discouraged. It's what they want. It's where they're --

Julia: Okay, no. Okay, this is what we can agree on -- it's our culture -- that's what's true in our culture right now.

Bill: Maybe it's not our culture, maybe it's our biology.

Victoria: I don't think women believe more than men do. I think that's not true.

Michael: No, here's the deal -- Is that all of us come to our beliefs for personal, psychological reasons, for upbringing -- the number one predictor of anybody's religious beliefs is their parents' religious beliefs. And then it gets tweaked from there, to peer group influences and so on. When guys justify their belief, they do it using arguments having to do with the complexity of the universe, the intelligent design, the dna, all this stuff.

Bill: Right.

Michael: Women, I think, are just more honest --

Victoria: I told you about the dna backstage.

Michael: I know, I know, I know. I've heard it before, believe me. I think actually women are just more honest about what we really base our beliefs on. That is, women are more --

Bill: Right.

Michael: -- sensitive to what's really going on with belief systems. Guys are just trying to justify --

Bill: Guys are saying, "I'll believe it when I see it." Women are saying, "I'll believe it when it makes me feel good." And you don't have to watch "Oprah" every day to know that is the basic difference between men and women. No, seriously.

Julia: Well, women are more prone to giving credence to their emotional life, which is a good thing. And they are more open about taking solace and comfort from an idea of a God.

Bill: But you don't know if that's a good thing. It's sometimes a good thing.

Michael: It's not good or bad, it just is.

Bill: Not always --

Michael: Viva La Difference. It's just the way it is, and it's good, yeah.

Victoria: But all the disciples were men.

Bill: Right.

Victoria: All the disciples were men. And all of the guys in the Bible were men. There weren't just women following Jesus around.

Michael: You know, it seemed like a patriarchal system that women wouldn't endorse necessarily. Why would you endorse that?

Victoria: You know why there's more old ladies in church 'cause all the husbands died.

Michael: Well, there you go.

Bill: All right. I have to take a break. In a minute, we'll come back to this.

Bill: All right. It's almost Christmas, time of year to talk about religion. I know you think that I'm one of those people who is going to suffer an eternal damnation in a lake of fire that burns but never consumes. Much like Glendale in August.

But here's -- what I was asking last night on our show, I want to ask this to you -- if the Gospels are the word of God, how come they don't agree with each other? Doesn't that say that --

Victoria: For example?

Bill: For example, like only one of them mentions the Magi and the star in the sky. Some of them have him being born in Bethlehem, some of them in Nazareth. There's lots of -- one of them, at the end, he says, "God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Michael: Which, by the way, is an exact quote from Isaiah, which tells us probably the gospel writers were just copying from Isaiah.

Bill: Well, they were.

Michael: So here's the deal -- Mark is the first one written, in about 60 A.D. Matthew and Luke were copied directly from Mark, we know, because they're word-for-word verbatim, all of the documents from Mark in those two. John was probably -- we don't know who wrote John. It may even be a woman because there are some feminist themes in there. Which is sort of odd, because Jesus -- if you think about it, it's odd that the Christian conservative would endorse Jesus, like George W. Says, Jesus is his favorite philosopher, right?

Bill: Right.

Michael: He says give up your private property, which is bad, belongings are no good, and abandon your family to follow him. So basically he's a family-hating Communist endorsed by the Republicans. Now, how do you figure that?

Victoria: He was just saying that he couldn't make it on his own. He was just saying -- you can't get eternal life by your good works 'cause you'll never be good enough. That's what he was trying to say.

Bill: What do you mean trying to say? I thought he was God.

Victoria: He's explaining it.

Bill: I mean, George Bush, I understand, has trouble saying things. , all those things you say, they don't take away from any of the truth. If there's a star in one, and one doesn't, how does that affect the Gospel? Bill: Isn't that kind of a big thing, the star, the magi? Victoria: No, four guys see a traffic accident and they all tell you what they saw, and it doesn't contradict at all.

Bill: But you do realize that the guys who wrote the gospels didn't see any of Jesus, they lived long after he died.

Victoria: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?

Michael: This is the oral tradition passed along. And you know, when you tell stories, and they get tweaked and changed.

Bill: Yes.

Michael: And also, these are --

Bill: Plus, they weren't trying to record history. They were trying to convert people.

Victoria: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, they knew Jesus.

Bill: They didn't know Jesus. They lived after he died.

Michael: That's right, long after.

Victoria: Oh, I didn't know that.

Michael: Yeah.

Victoria: I should have learned that in Bible college.

Michael: No, they don't tell that you in Bible college, no.

Bill: They were written by different --

Victoria: The Bible was written over a period of 1,600 years, 40 different authors and it all is one narrative. How does that work? It's a miracle.

Julia: There must be a God!

Aaron: They were written by man, and God said, "Believe, have faith." That's the word.

Michael: And that's what it comes down to, really, is faith. You can't prove it.

Julia: Right.

Victoria: And by the way, he told me backstage that he became a born-again Christian when he was --

Bill: Yeah, I read his book, he did that to get laid. That's what it says. It says he had a friend whose sister you wanted to impress, am I right, doc?

Michael: Well, that's true. That's just the background context that -- I can't believe I put that in the book.

Julia: The first two stories in the Bible, the creation, are two contradictory and different stories of the creation. So, to me, if you're reading a book and the first two chapters of the book are two different versions of one story, then that's telling you not to take it literally. It's supposed to be a metaphor.

Bill: Exactly.

Victoria: What are the two versions? What are you talking about? Julia: In Genesis 1 and then the next story in Genesis, where Adam and Eve are born -- or created at the same time. And then the first one, Adam's first and then Eve's taken from the rib. It's two different stories. So to me, when I read a book that has two different stories in the beginning, it's saying, "These are myths." That these are the myths of our culture. These are beautiful stories that have great psychological impact, and a great way to understand our people psychologically. But they're not to be taken literally. And the Bible contradicts itself over and over and over again.

Bill: Yeah. I mean, just to give you one example -- Joseph didn't really put Mary on a donkey. It just says they hauled ass.

Julia: Ooh.

Michael: And let's talk about that story. The virgin birth thing --

Bill: Yeah.

Michael: Okay, all right. So this is the oldest story in history, right? She gets pregnant.

Bill: It is the oldest, it is literally.

Michael: And he says, "what's the deal, honey? She says, "Um, it was God who impregnated me." And he bought it.

Bill: But I mean, that's not -- but none of the Christ story is original. The authors were trying to convert people. They took myths that were already popular. December 25th --

Victoria: Well, why do they do that to get their head chopped off?

Bill: Well, they didn't get their head chopped off.

Victoria: They didn't get rich off of it or anything.

Michael: They created a world religion.

Victoria: Why? What do they get out of it?

Bill: Honey, I mean, you want to talk about religions getting rich, there's a lot of books in the library on that.

Victoria: Well, the guys in the Bible did not get rich, they got killed.

Bill: No. They didn't get -- not those people at the time of Jesus. Later, when the religion got popular and was a threat --

Julia: It was all Paul.

Bill: People got --

Julia: I just want to say it's Paul.

Victoria: Yeah, so this other guy Paul says, "Someday in the year 2000, I want people to get rich so I'm gonna make up a story"?

Julia: No, Paul was like -- he was like the PMK for Jesus.

Bill: Yeah.

Julia: Get all of the publicity.

Michael: It's not just -- people aren't motivated just by money. I mean --

Bill: Right.

Michael: The difference between a cult and a religion is about 100 years. When it begins -- think about it. The Mormons, 100 years ago, a small cult. Now they're a world religion. Scientologists are halfway there. And the motivation comes from the psychology of having believers tell you that you are divine like your God, you know, that's motivating. There's a whole sort of concantination of psychological events going on there that drives these things from a little movement to a big movement. Just think of VCRs versus Beta, right? One of them gets a head start. Christianity gets a slight head start over all the other cults in Rome and it took off, and here we are.

Bill: So, right --

Michael: VCR/Beta, that's the principle. The Betamax is actually better than VCR, and there was probably other religions other than Christianity, but somebody's gotta win out.

Julia: But I have to say that since I lost my faith, that is when I began to appreciate Jesus' teachings so much more. Like, I wasn't able to relate to him as a God. But as a person who had some incredibly dangerous ideas, I began to have such love for him.

Bill: Oh, I agree. There's no greater example. I mean, there's just no better guy.

Victoria: So when you got cancer, you didn't pray?

Julia: No.

Victoria: You didn't pray to God once?

Julia: No. I did -- I did for other things, because it really wasn't until after that experience that I went through a big philosophical change that led me to where I am now. So -- but about my own cancer now. But about my brother, I did. And I used religion and it's a great solace.

Victoria: If you don't believe in it, why did you pray about your brother?

Bill: But would God really want you to --

Victoria: I mean, why were you praying if you don't believe that there's anyone listening?

Julia: This was not that -- that was before I feel the way I do now. But at the time, when I did pray -- and it was very comforting, and it was very -- I got great solace from it. And that's very sad to give up for me. And it's a great tragedy for me to give that up. But I'm willing to give it up because I want to see things clearly. I want to -- I'm willing to give that away in order to feel like I'm looking for what's true, rather than what's just nice for me to be true.

Bill: Okay. So first of all, honey, you know, we're not trying to pick on you.

Victoria: I know.

Bill: I know.

Victoria: I'm not picking on you, either.

Bill: Okay. You're supposed to be on her side. Where are you in all of this, Mr. Jesus on your arm?

Aaron: Oh, yeah, I got him.

Bill: But I think the problem people have with religion, some people, is that when you compare the religions of the world, they seem to have the same core beliefs about morality. They're all trying to tell people, "Stay in line. Don't kill each other. Don't lie, honor your parents." It's the minutiae, the myths that get people in trouble. Why are they fighting in Jerusalem? Because some people believe that Muhammad descended from the other one -- no, Jesus was here, no, it was Moses. You know, so they fight over stuff that doesn't seem -- yes.

Victoria: They're fighting 'cause one was Ishmael and one was Isaac, and they both have the same dad and they both think that they deserve that. But anyway, go ahead.

Bill: But --yeah.

Victoria: What you're saying is that all the religions are the same, and I agree with you, they --

Bill: No.

Victoria: The world religio means "To bind back to God" and it's about good works. And the difference with the Bible is, it says, ephesians 2, 8:9, "For by grace are you saved through faith but not of yourself, is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."

And the gospel is that Jesus died for our sins and that we can't earn eternal life on our own good works. No matter how good you are, you're never good enough.

Bill: But you know, you know --

Victoria: It's a wonderful gift. You don't even have to do anything.

Michael: Gosh, it's so -- it's so simplistic, if you're good, we're going to do these nice things for you. If you're bad, we're going to hit you.

Victoria: That's why only dumb women believe in it.

Michael: It's like, for 5-year-olds.

Bill: It is.

Michael: Kind of basic.

Victoria: It's very simple.

Bill: It is very simple. Exactly. But life isn't very simple.

Michael: No, it's complex. What you're finding in those commonalities between all those religions are real basic moral fundamental principles, like "Do unto others." It's in all of them, why? Because -- I think -- that we evolved morality. We are a hierarchal primate social species, in which we need to be able to interact with each other in order to survive as a collective whole. How do we do that? "Do unto others" is the perfect beginning of the philosophy. And then you build on that.

Bill: You see, like, in government we did it. And that's another institution like religion -- instead of going tooth and claw and clubbing each other in the streets, we had a disputed election, we solved it -- sort of --in the courts.

Michael: Did we?

Bill: Religion the same thing. Instead of having people do that -- but why do we need all the myths? Why is it -- and when people believe them fundamentally, then they fight over it and kill each other.

Victoria: Atheism is responsible for more killing than Christianity --

Julia: No, no!

Victoria: Yes, it is! Can't use that Christian war thing anyway.

Bill: Atheists are more responsible?

Michael: Religions have been the master of persecution and warfare throughout history.

Victoria: But Hitler wasn't a Christian, you know.

Michael: But we can't blame religion for this. It's extremism. It's what you were just saying, Bill, it's extremism of any kind -- ideological, political, religious. That's the problem.

Bill: Yeah. And --

Victoria: Merry Christmas!

Bill: Last chance to get in on the religious show.

Michael: When people say you can't be good without God --

Bill: This is your last prayer.

Michael: -- My response is, maybe you can't be good without God.

Bill: Yes.

Michael: Obviously, lots of nonreligious people are plenty good. Lots of religious people are bad.

Victoria: Are you celebrating Christmas?

Michael: I celebrate Festivus, for the rest of us.

Of course I celebrate Christmas with my God. Of course.

Bill: Well, Christmas isn't a religious holiday.

Victoria: It's Jesus' birthday.

Bill: I know. Well, first of all, it isn't even Jesus' birthday. Let's get that straight.

Michael: It's the winter solstice.

Bill: It is not Jesus' birthday.

Victoria: I know what happened when it was hot outside. I know.

Michael: It's the winter -- we're celebrating. The days are getting longer.

Bill: So if you know that that's baloney --

Aaron: Whether you get in heaven or not if you're good without believing in Jesus, that's your belief.

Bill: Yeah, even the Pope said that recently. The pope said, "You know what? Even without me, I think you can get there." And we all went, "Hey, that's more than Bush said."

Bill: So let me just ask in the very short time we have, did Jesus exist? Because some people say there's no historical record, just a religious record.

Aaron: When I'm singing, I feel like the Jesus in me is touching the Jesus in whoever's listening. And I believe in Jesus.

Victoria: I believe in Jesus. Oh! You know what, if he didn't exist, why did they base the calendar on his death? Michael: Huh?

Julia: Okay.

Bill: Well --

Michael: That settles it.

Bill: That's a good --

Aaron: 2,000 A.D.

Bill: Tomorrow, we have Molly Sims, Corey Feldman, Mindy Sterling and Monica Crowley.